[phonograma]

cheers good people,
i have been looking to upgrade my home studio with a better audio interface with more inputs/outputs.
i think the best option would be firewire as i will get a new laptop also, so no pci will do.
i want a decent setup so i can grow in a new direction in the future and not again on the interface.
there are a few used mk1 motu around the net.
what are you people using?
any wisdom to be shared?
much appreciated

[Bobzyeruncle]

Motu 828 is a goodie for starters, Not as good as the RME stuff, but works well with 18 channels on the go at once (8ADAT, 8 Analogue and a SPDIF)
Using a lot of Mics at once you may wish to look at the Firepod, which has 192kHz and pretty decent preamps.
PCMCIA is also a good alternative for Laptops.
Multichanneling with USB and windows is a no-no.

[herbanmusic]

Originally Posted by Bobzyeruncle

Motu 828 is a goodie for starters, Not as good as the RME stuff, but works well with 18 channels on the go at once (8ADAT, 8 Analogue and a SPDIF)
Using a lot of Mics at once you may wish to look at the Firepod, which has 192kHz and pretty decent preamps.
PCMCIA is also a good alternative for Laptops.
Multichanneling with USB and windows is a no-no.

I can see you havent tried USB 2.o Mixers yet. Allows multichanneling no probs.
About doing an upgrade for a laptop is quite limited, but i probably understand that is the best for you(mobile, to playlive and that aint it?).
About setups, for those of us that like to both have a recording studio and also be able to dub live from a DAW and record it back there, after many attempts and set ups i realised that an analogical mixer with a soundcard with X in X out( X= the ammount of imputs you want/need
) is the best. Or a good firewire/usb2.0 mixer, if you can afford it.

[phonograma]

thank you all for taking time for giving advice.
some good points here.

[Bobzyeruncle]

HerbanMusic mentioned the USB2.0, which is fine, and I do use USB, but it can be easily put right off when in combination with different devices, and I have had a few problems on this front, which means on a mobile basis you always need to have the ´drivers with you.
Won`t reach the speed of a FW800 or PCMCIA either.
One unit I would recommend id the little Wamibox by EGOSYS, where you can load in a sampler and plenty of soundfonts of your choice in 20 Bit, a bit quiet, but does the job very well.
Anotgher cool unit for running multichannel with hands on mixing is the Mackie ONYX (FW) and has 8, 16 or 24 channels. The Yamaha OX1 is very much the same thing, and Ive seen that Aleisis are doing a similar unit with inferior converters at a much cheaper price.
Once you get one of these units or connecting fields, you may find that you never buy a new one, as it really should be enough to last a lifetime, so some serious consideration beforehand may be well worthwhile.

[phonograma]

thanks again Bob. can i call you Bob?
the problem with this firewire mixers is that they only allow multitrack recording. no playback. so the hands on mixing has to be done on the recording session or using another mixer.
i want to buy something to last a life time you're right.
so that's why i am strongly considering a firewire interface with 24 analog i/o to connect to an analog mixer.
i have been a little confused reading some descriptions as they refer lots of i/o but when you check it doenst seem to have them. (either double counting or maybe using other types)
maybe you can explain this better..
much appreciated.

[Bobzyeruncle]

On a MOTU 828 there are 18 in and 18 out connections (8 analogue, 8 ADAT and 2 SPDIF, both ways). Using the sequencer or hardware of your choice you will find you are free to route these as to your purpose.
There are 2 clocks on board, so you won`t suffer any sync problems using ADAT and SPDIF together.
In 1 set up I have the ADAT connected straight to a O1V desk, and the analogue imputs are connected straight to analogue effects and synths,
leaving me to freely select which input does what to each output (stuff like sidechaining compressors via some input, signal panning remote,etc.)
The recorded signals are done via the desk into the ADAT (8 channel simultanious, and SPDIF from an extra MIND PRINT preamp).
A stereo mixdown of the monitoring is sometimes sent straight to a Minidisk via SPDIF output on the desk itself (pilot tracking, etc.).
All routing is done in the sequencer of choice (Logic and Cubase in my case, but also works fine on Live and Sonar,which I`ve tested. Others should also do fine). In Logic I`ve created a few different enviroments, meaning that the incomming and outgoing signals are preset to go down different routes, as a voiceover doesn`t need the same channeling as a straight multitrack recording, or a mixdown, or as 7.1 surround.
Sounds all very complicated, and it is indeed. It took me ages (a coulpe of years) to get it all together, but these are specific settings for commercial customers, so I found myself reluctant to be unplugging this every time I do a live gig (using LIVE), either recording or playing back.
Bottom line is I went out and bought another 828, which is used mobile, and is in the rack with a few effects and eq`s across a patchbay for this purpose.
The MOTU does have a few quirks on the windows platform however, especially on a startup (has to be started before the computer, otherwise it generates white noise due to the missing sync), and Linux drivers are not what they should be as yet, using wine sorts it out there, as with your favourite VST`s. Macheads get a lower latency and it will generally perform better there.
I also use a MARC88 and PRODIF Plus card, which perform well too, but are by no means as flexible as the MOTU due to having one clock.
The best one out there is from the house of RME Hammerfall, which will give you next to no latency on any platform, will however cost a few pennies more. Also very flexible through the breakoutboxes they do.
I`ve seen them doing the PCI ADAT cards for less than 200€, and you can sample at just about any bitrate too.
3 of those controlled from a 01V962 with extra cards, and you have a mobile 24 track studio for just about any setting.
Recording straight to a HDrecorder may also be a consideration, there`s a nice Mackie unit doing 24 track, with removable Drives so you can plant them into your computer later, but both the Alesis and Mackie units are rather fragile, so road wear and tear should be thought of if you are looking at that route. External Drives are always better, be they USB or SATA or FW, as long as they are fast data transfers (remember to back stuff up which may be important to you!).
As to the playback during recordin issue you mentioned, well I haven`t had this problem myself, but have heard of USB soundcard users who did come across this, mostly due to not knowing the gear they are using too well.
One of the simplest and most effective methods of overcomming latency playback problems is to invest in a set of 8 DI boxes and a small 12 channel desk simply for monitoring. By running the Mic signal through a DI, you can use the line out to feed into the second desk, mixing a headphone or stage mix for the players. Experience has shown that by getting a decent stage sound, you are much more likely to get the best performance from the players, which will certainly reflect on your end product.
Some external soundcards will allow you to make an independent monitoring mix, but if you are using headphones for your players, you may well find this insufficient, as the singer will not want as much kick as the bassplayer, or the horns will want more guitar than the keyboard player, etc. An external mixer should come into it`s own if this is the case, as you can route signals through the auxes and master or subs enabling you to fine tune for any requirements the players may have, or your monitoring system will allow for.
Those little Mackie 1202 are pretty clean and robust, as are the Yamahas, but the Behringer do seem to generate a lot of unwanted hiss and noise, especially with a lot of channels open. For this purpose I use a 1604, wich does just fine, as I can get upto 10 channels out with 2 effects, and pretty noisefree for larger bands. EQ`s are a bit dead though, but still does the job fine. This monitor mixer does get a lot of abuse, so if choosing to use one, you may want to considersomething sturdy rather than brilliant but fragile. One often overlooked fact is that by using lots of cables and connections, you increase the possibility ofweak links in your system, so do look to get quality connectors and cable. If you need help getting Neutrik stuff, let me know, as I get a really decent deal on the wholesale market for them. Buying prefabbed cables is not cheap, neither reliable, so do get some practice on your soldering skills in before taking the risk.
Obviously the units and methods I have mentioned in this (very long!) post are from my own experiences, and there are some different and good units out there, one of which is the FIREPOD. Seems inexpensive, reliable and has 8 decent preamps with phantompower if you need it (condenser mics).
Never used it, but did buy the little FIREFLY, which is a cut down version, and works just fine with a laptop on the road (used for recording with an APEX and BRAUNER mics so far).
Maybe a visit to your local supplier with a list of what you are looking for would work out well.
I have used the same shop for 20 years, and am able to get some decent discounts on the gear I buy (not just for myself), with a choice of 2 or 3 simmilar units to take with me, and return the ones I don`t want.
If the owner gets the impression you are researched and serious about what you do, you could well walk away with a good deal.

[phonograma]

i was looking for something like this
MOTU.com - MOTU 24I/O Interactive Tour
24 analog i/o. but with firewire instead of pci (to be used in macbook pro).
i would settle for slightly less i/o but 8 are too few.
looks like end of the road for this option.
the digital mixing desk is not an option so the adat is useless.

[Bobzyeruncle]

Certainly a nice machine, and decent converters on board too.
One snag I found on the PCI version was that you can only pad on banks of 8,
meaning you really have to think about the way you connect your outboard stuff. Apart from recording live, I couldn`t think of a reason to have 24 inputs running at the same time, but I`m sure you`ll have your reasons.
Do get yourself a large harddrive as well, as all those files will take some space!
Hope it turns out to be what you`re after.

[phonograma]

actually i was forgeting that many interfaces can be cascaded for extra i/o.
i dont need 24 inputs immediatly but would be nice not to change everything when i reach the limit.
either way, dont read much about people getting tracks from pc to the mixer, so you dont see the need for lots of outputs on a "large" mixer, but i do want that.
bottomline, i want to upgrade my studio with some room to grow. that's why i was looking for more i/o, but as i said i was forgeting the daisy chaining possibility.
thank you so much for your suggestions and knowledge sharing, they have been and believe they still will be quite helpfull.