[herbanmusic]

Originally Posted by Bobzyeruncle

HerbanMusic mentioned the USB2.0, which is fine, and I do use USB, but it can be easily put right off when in combination with different devices, and I have had a few problems on this front, which means on a mobile basis you always need to have the ´drivers with you.
Won`t reach the speed of a FW800 or PCMCIA either.
One unit I would recommend id the little Wamibox by EGOSYS, where you can load in a sampler and plenty of soundfonts of your choice in 20 Bit, a bit quiet, but does the job very well.
Anotgher cool unit for running multichannel with hands on mixing is the Mackie ONYX (FW) and has 8, 16 or 24 channels. The Yamaha OX1 is very much the same thing, and Ive seen that Aleisis are doing a similar unit with inferior converters at a much cheaper price.
Once you get one of these units or connecting fields, you may find that you never buy a new one, as it really should be enough to last a lifetime, so some serious consideration beforehand may be well worthwhile.

Blessings Uncle Bob ( All RASpect due);
Now serious: Didnt realised you was talking to an higher level, medium level, when i was focusing on an entry/medium level, scaled down specially having a smal idea of the type of works Phonograma uses generally.
For small studio set ups, home set ups, and even as a basic set up using the mixer as a "through" piece of gear,the few USB 2.0 you can(rarely lol) find in the market would have done quite well and perfectly. Its limited, even in the same range of firewire but does the trick.
Of course that for a more medium level quality set-up, and depending on a varied issues related to how you intend to use it, id advise to suss out several of the gear review one can easily find online.
But i found that a good M- Audio 10 in /10 out with a 16 analog mixer, a midi/usb controller for the DAW ( that enables you to control most DAW's at distance in a really versatile way) along with a good stash of Inspiration (lol) is more than enough for any mobile, versatile studio compatible with a basic setup from any band or soundsystem( even using live mixing and triggering of Loops and similars, normally used in soundsystems/Selectas), delivering an incredible professional sound quality, considering 5 years ago.
If the aim is to have a proper professional, stable studio we would have to consider a much more varied issues...But we are talking about something much more higher finacially wise and gear quantity and specification wise ( A thing i think is out of reach from most of our pockets...I man spent close to 5 grand by now, in this last 2 years, roughly, and have barely started, even though i achieved what ive been aiming for, which is the possiility to both record a basic band if needed and also allow I to dub live from InI DAW, with access to external effects, etc).
But, from my experience in professional studio setups(which is a bit basic, i admit that), i would still recommend using an external timecoder connecting all the several recorders sequencers and midi gear, as it would save you a lot of hassle an head aches.
Even though money is of essence, and a thing that runs short at my side, i would have a multitrack recorder if i could, as a way of back up and also as a side chain piece of gear to open the horizons when working(depemdimg on what id be doing) and allways use external fx processors...But one thing is aspire to, and dream, and another is to be the proud owner of such gear; One thing is working with someone elses equipment , another is trying to build up your own workable studio, trying keep side by side two of the things that most times clash : Acquired gear/workable or usable gear... Cuz the "CROWN JEWELS" normally require another crown jewel (money wise i mean) to run properly... And most of us dont really want to wait another 8 months to be able to buy the OTHER piec of gear really needed to use things at its full potential...
Some of us have the possibilities money wise, some of us dont...Most of us try to work in our own studio as much as we can and rent proper studios only as a last resource, in order to finish and deliver works...
Those of us that live FROM music live a constant struggle to make ends meet, without selling ourselves and our ideals and principles to the SHARKS of the music industry.
As far as im concerned, ill keep struggling, holding InI head up high proud of my humble achievements( this if i have achieved anything at all lolol).
But i also value the knowledge of others, as it is the best fountain of wisdom, as cheap as it gets, and as effortlessly as it gets.
Giving thaks
Ras Bruno

[Bobzyeruncle]

If you are looking to get some hands on control of your tracks you could always invest in a BCR/BCF set up, they`re inexpensive, fantastic, and you can lay out as many as you`d wish to use without problems on just about any sequencer out there.
The BCF2000 are motorized faders, so are a bit more on the cost front, but still nothing like as expensive as the Mackies they emulate.
The 01V will do both, control and soundcard, and I`ve seen them (with expansion boards) for as little as 300€ on online auction sites, so you have 24 channels with hands on controls (plus 4 freely assingable banks for your synths or VST`s) all in one unit There`s even an extra MIDI cable for one of the ports to handle all the extra data, which will show up extra on your sequencer of choice. Certainly works better and faster than all those USB controllers out there. The major advantage to such a desk is the total recall function, which enables an instant and ready to go setting for every song and situation.
The 01V296 will do you up to 40 or so channels, but they don`t seem to be offered 2nd hand, which tells us all something.
It also features 4 FX, 8 Omni ouputs (signals for monitors, outboard effect feeds, etc.). Well worth it if you have a few pennies to spare. The converters are top notch too, and not even Apogee are offering replacements or upgrades for the unit, which is indeed something.
I have installed a couple for conference centres and suchlike, where the individual line delays come in really handy, but all in all it`s a well thought out unit, and well undermerrited as a production console. Should probably last a lifetime. I found it more flexible than the equivalent Roland unit, especially setting up for folks who have no or little idea of digital desks.
Tascam also do a nice range of desks, but are generally edged out of the market due to their special connectors, which can be both expensive and a pain in the bum when things start going wrong. AH desks are great, but much too unreliable, Mackie desks have a very dry EQ to them, Soundcraft are generally bulky and cannot do as much, but have great EQing on board, as do Studiomaster. Onboard control? We love it!

[Bobzyeruncle]

Originally Posted by herbanmusic

Blessings Uncle Bob ( All RASpect due);
Now serious: Didnt realised you was talking to an higher level, medium level, when i was focusing on an entry/medium level, scaled down specially having a smal idea of the type of works Phonograma uses generally.
For small studio set ups, home set ups, and even as a basic set up using the mixer as a "through" piece of gear,the few USB 2.0 you can(rarely lol) find in the market would have done quite well and perfectly. Its limited, even in the same range of firewire but does the trick.
.......
Giving thaks
Ras Bruno

Hi Bruno!
I do believe we met at the London gathering in August,but maybe you don`t remember me, as I came strictly as a visitor with my girlfriend.
Sure I do appreciate your points of costs/value of the gear you invest in, and have found myself in the very same position in the past. In fact I have a cellar full of stuff I neither wish to lose, but have no real use for right now. Some is just junk, some are jewels in their own right. Stuff has accumilated over the years for sure. The issue at hand is Phono`s desire to upgrade to a studio if not for a lifetime, at least for a few years. One of the things to upgrading is leaving enough scope for future projects, which means enough channels, and with 24 outputs he`s by no means devaluing the essence of having enough. The MOTU unit he has suggested is by no means a budget set up, as it has it`s price too, but certainly lacks hands on control.
For such occasions as the Jazz and classic week starting tomorrow her in my town I simply rent one with a Mackie 24 channel HD recorder (costs 60€ a day), and have bought a couple of Drives (which I get to keep) to store the incomming data. Now I either sell the drives to the artists(which are then taken to a large studio to mix an album from), or do a mix myself here at home (it`s all money) for the artists to publish their own work from to sell at gigs they do.
People come round my yard for this kind of service every now and again, simply due to both experience and the amount of oddities which can be plugged in. So the gear ends up paying for itself at the end of the day, thing is my time is gone, which will never be returned, so I`m unwilling to do it for the sake of it, especially as some of the music you get to listen to sounds more like someone wanking into their instrument.
Even the lokal Punkrock bands asked to Master their forthcomming compilation. Price? a thank you and a bottle of beer. No thanks, that`s 2 days of the rest of my life to grind through (sometimes) untuned grit guitar, untuned drums, and basicly badly played songlists. At the end of the day I`m the one to blame for the naff sounding album full of practiceroom recordings, bad singers, badly tuned guitars and crap drummers. That`s what proffesional studios do day in and out.
These days of freely available gear and recordings has indeed it`s drawbacks, as any tom dick or harry can and does produce their own material in masses. The quality of the music has gone downhill, and there are a few (if far between) gems to be found in there. Back in the `80 when I started doing this, there were vocal coaches, arrangement teams, engineers, producers, etc., all there for the purpose of getting a good idea down as a great song. The bands came into the (expensive) studio after a lenghty tour,and the producer would slow them down a bit, so they played every single stroke and note to perfection. Nowadays we do it all ourselves.
Just how would a movie look if you filmed, acted, did sound, lighting, storybook set, screenplay and cutting? possibly not as good as when you had someone who knows how to cut, light, screen, makeup, etc.
USB is Universal, be it printer, camera, HD,Internet connection, or whatever, and will never reach any kind of immune standard, purely through the nature of the connection.

I get pissed when my simple MIDISPORT 4X4 needs reinstalling for no reason, and that`s just a small quirk (great little unit though), so how can the USB deal with 24 Channel 96kHz? It can`t
Try a few of the units, and you get into the grey zone of reinstalling the units on occasions you simply don`t need to.
Firewire 800 is both fast and (up until now ) reliable, hence the use of firewire(or pcmcia) by the real pro`s on the market.
ADAT lightpipes are strictly for sound (although Yamaha brought Midi in there too), have no loss over any distance, and you get 8 channels into 1 single cable. Converters are now cheap, so this kind of thinking has obviously some foundation as to setting up a studio, even for home use only.
Maudio have certainly improved on their production line over the last decade, and have been more selective as to the companies they buy up (none of their stuff is actually comming from themselves), but I`ve never heard of less than 11mS delay in any of the converters/drivers they use (hammerfall are at 3mS for years now, independent of sample frequency), neither will they ever touch on any of the Mic producers with tradition, who cost a few dollars more, simply through years of research (Brauner, AKG, Apex, Neumann), as their target consumers are simply those who want such and such a mic with such and such specs. Made in China, where labour is cheap, and copied design specs. At least SE still do research into their stuff (I don`t mean capital gain here), and the result is you can get a very good large membrane for less than 300 quid, even though it`s made in china. But it has a certain amount of quality control to it.
Taipco have no longer the real Mackie quality or feel, where every single unit would be thoroughly tested and checked before it left the factory, and was made with pride in the product, even though it cost. I still have 2 desks, which have never needed repair for over 20 years (still don`t like the EQ`s though), and my 10 year old 1604 VLZ is possibly one of the most flexible mixers I`ve ever had in my hands. Very affordible too.
High end is more the NEVE and SSL console stuff, which have great preamps in them, but don`t like change of temperature much, let alone room humidity, and you can get them updated with automation if you want.Don`t forget the services though, as they can go all plumbshaped. Neve do channel strips for people like you and me, but they come at a price too. Good units though, and you can give your mix some real quality by running in or out of them.
I don`t really aspire to be the proud owner of a super unit myself, as these things never really substitute for real talent, be it musically or production wise, and it would only take up both space and money to do it, so I adhere more to the get the best out of what you`ve got clan. I`d much prefer to record a decent vocal take over a SM58 than a nervous take on an expensive Neumann, having to correct using Melodyne, or suchlike, as I firmly believe that getting the best out of a performer will always shine through, but having a few decent v72 preamps certainly does help, even though there are no digital converters out there that can handle the real range they provide to do justice to the units....
Personally I would always look to the skills on display, be it in playing, arranging, mixing or mastering, rather than the great
gear it`s all been trough (or not).
One name springs to mind on that front is JAH SLAVE, or AITZOL, who uses very limited equipment to make some wicked tunes. He`s not alone either, as there are literally dozens of artists who frequent this site with real talent.
Whichever way you do it, make sure you do it well, even if it means a lot of practice, be it on the instrument or in dub......
Phew!

[herbanmusic]

Yes i do remember you, of course...
I think that the frustrations of trying to get a good setup, is enough inspiring to write a whole series of books, an a to z kinda thing... lol.
And we end up with allways the same problem...Money ?!?!
Thanks for your wisdom: Its been really helpful even for me, that was not the one who asked the question lol
Giving thanks
Ras Bruno

[phonograma]

thanks Bob and Bruno for this knowledge sharing thread.
i like my current setup and i will still be using it.
what i am looking for, as i wrote before, is to expand my possibilities. i will be working with a local band (both live and studio) and therefore need a serious upgrade on my gear. so far i am studying what best suits my needs, so that when i have a chance i will buy 2 or 3 units that will really put me where i want to be. this will be analog mixer with enough channels for whatever i might want to experiment, audio interface to support that laptop-mixer connection (both ways) and all of this still be flexible for future updates.
this is no "i look good standing next to it" thing! this is serious work.
there is a good chance i can get a hold of a soundcraft studio 24. now Bob, you mention something not so clear about soundcraft. can you expand some more?
about the interface, my best option so far is a second hand original motu 826 firewire (supporting daisy chaining). im little afraid how it might sound as i have read an opinion stating the sound quality would go down with time.

[Bobzyeruncle]

The MOTU stuff won`t degrade, and if you get the chance try looking for a MK2, as the will support 24 bit. Drivers are an issue here, but being a Machead, you should have no real problems there.
As to Soundcraft, they are indeed fine bits of equipment, and have the so called british EQ in them, making for a more colourfull EQing, something you get used to and won`t want to miss once you get used to it.
I worked for years on a Vienna, and only lost it due to space.
The matrix and output possibilities are more or less endless, but not so good as a DM1000, and have neither recall functions nor controller possibilities.
Maybe you`d like to consider the possibility of a digital desk, as most will operate as both soundcard and controller all in one.
The little Macke ONYX certainly does a fine job, as does the Yamahahahaha 0X1, both can be gotten 2nd hand quite cheap.
If you wish to get complicated, the Roland 24 is great for getting you confused upon....
Good thing about the digital desks are that they have all the obvious in there, Comps/gates, FX, line delays, grouping, monitoring, recording...
All in one unit, so saves a lot of set up hassles with cables and so on.

[Bobzyeruncle]

Just missed out on this baby,Wamibox,
Which is actually a very handy piece of gear (Ialready have one, but the price was too good to be true).
Never mind, next time around....

[Bobzyeruncle]

RME box
Is the best you will find, but you should buy a PCMCIA card for your Macbook.